Wealthy After Divorce

S2EP17:Navigating Co-Parenting After Divorce with Jordana Wolfson

• Melissa Fradenburg, CDFA® and Jacki Roessler, CDFA®

Share episode

Navigating the aftermath of a divorce can feel like charting a course through stormy seas, especially when children are on board. That's why we invited Jordana Wolfson, co-founder of Co-Parenting Solutions LLC, onto the Wealthy After Divorce podcast. Her unique insights, born from a tapestry of personal experiences as a child of divorce, a divorced parent, and a former school principal, shed light on the art of constructing parenting plans that truly anchor the family post-separation. Delve into the essential components of these plans, and discover how to sidestep common pitfalls that threaten the peace and emotional well-being of your children.

 Resources:

Links are being provided for information purposes only. We do not suggest that listening to this podcast will make you wealthy. The information herein is general and educational in nature and should not be considered legal or tax advice. Tax laws and regulations are complex and subject to change, which can materially impact investment results. Pearl Planning cannot guarantee that the information herein is accurate, complete, or timely. Pearl Planning makes no warranties with regard to such information or results obtained by its use and disclaims any liability arising out of your use of, or any tax or legal position taken in reliance on, such information. Consult an attorney or tax professional regarding your specific situation. Please note, changes in tax laws or regulations may occur at any time and could substantially impact your situation. Pearl Planning financial advisors do not render advice on tax or legal matters. You should discuss any tax or legal matters with the appropriate professional.






Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Wealthy After Divorce podcast. Jackie Ressler, a divorce financial planner with almost 25 years experience, and myself, melissa Freidenberg, financial advisor with Pearl Planning. We are both certified divorce financial analysts and your co-hosts.

Speaker 2:

If you're thinking about divorce or in the process of divorce, this is a time for you to take a deep breath and give yourself permission to gain clarity on the financial decision they're facing.

Speaker 1:

While the term wealth typically refers to money and possessions, we know that truly being wealthy means a whole lot more. Together with our guests on this podcast, we will help you live wealthy after divorce.

Speaker 2:

Hello and welcome to Wealthy After Divorce. I'm Jackie Ressler and in this episode I'm talking with Jordana Wolfson, who owns co-parenting solutions LLC in Michigan and is a licensed social worker. I'm particularly excited to interview Jordana because I have admired her work with clients for a very long time. I've had a couple cases with Jordana and she is an invaluable resource for people that are getting divorced locally here in Michigan and for their attorneys. So, jordana welcome.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. Guess what a beautiful introduction. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

This is a topic that I have wanted to cover on the show for such a long time, so I appreciate you being here. We're going to be talking about parenting plans today, and you are the perfect person to talk about this, so, before we dive in, can you share a little bit about what motivates your work and what is the reason why you got into this field?

Speaker 3:

Sure, Sure. So really, I mean, I grew up as a child of divorce and I've been divorced myself and, thank goodness, I have a really nice, amicable relationship with my ex and we had able to work together and I really felt that I was working as a school principal and I was seeing all these kids. Yes, I was seeing all of these kids who were in these divorced families, particularly these high conflict divorce families where there were so many struggles that even seeped into the school. And I also had these kids. I used to call them my frequent flyers. They used to be in my office on Fridays and Mondays, anxious about changes, anxious about the transitions between the homes and things like that, and my heart really went out to these children. And what I decided was I can't really help these children unless I can help the parents.

Speaker 3:

And I had actually wanted to go back into my clinical social work, which was my initial field and luckily I had fallen into some other fields as well and, you know, have a degree in education and administration and certainly enjoyed that work. But I was coming to a point where I really wanted to go back to my roots with clinical social work. So, when I was looking to open up a practice. I was thinking about what would be a great niche for me, rather than just opening a practice that offered everything, but what would be something that I really have a unique view on and can really share my experiences and what I know is really good for kids with parents and help them to be better parents for their children, put their conflicts aside and put their children first. So that's how the idea came about.

Speaker 3:

My kids helped me name the business.

Speaker 3:

I didn't know it. I mean kids helped me name it and I'm probably most unique in the mental health field around here because I'm really I don't do individual work with people in terms of like. What I mean is I don't. I may work individually with somebody coaching them on co-parenting, but I'm not going to do individual therapy for depression, anxiety, ADHD or anything like that. I like to leave my schedule completely open for only families of divorce and separation and since co-parenting counseling can be and my goal is for it to be short term and I want to empower families to be able to work on their own without a professional, so most of my families that are successful, what happens is they see me for a little while and then we kind of space out appointments more and then eventually my goal is to empower them to work on their own, but they'll come back on an as needed basis before going to a court or something like that. But that allows me to rotate people in and out so that I have space for people, which is really nice.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I didn't realize that you only did this type of work.

Speaker 3:

I don't know what that says about me. I know I don't know what that says about me. Somebody called me for marriage counseling and I said, oh no, I'm much better at the divorce stuff than the marriage counseling. I'm not sure what that says, but I really like to just dig into a lot of concrete issues and I, from a mental health perspective, like I understand where people's trauma is and but we're not talking about the trauma, we're talking about how do you deal with these situations within the trauma you're experiencing. And so I like doing the concrete, solution-based type of pieces here.

Speaker 2:

You think that you're such an amazing asset in this you know that's. That's fantastic. I I'm very similar. I am a child of divorce and that motivated me, although I didn't realize it at the time, but it really motivated me to try to help people understand the number so that they wouldn't end up in the position that my mother was in. Right.

Speaker 3:

Oh, that's very smart. That is really nice.

Speaker 2:

I didn't realize that that's what I was doing initially, but that right.

Speaker 3:

I think you'll find a lot of us in this field, like I do get a lot of origin stories from family law attorneys and people in the finance field who are working with divorced families, and maybe because I'm a therapist, that'll sometimes open up to me about their origin stories and I'll say, oh, now I know why you got into this Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

But it's good to have experts on your team that have passion for what they're doing and yes yes. So let's dive into what do you, what do you see as the most common co-parenting challenges for divorced couples that are not met in a typical case, when they don't use a parenting coordinator?

Speaker 3:

So what happens is that sometimes parents fall into a situation where the conflict is so high between them that they actually avoid communicating with each other, or they over communicate with each other, but on topics that have nothing to do with their children, where they're angry about the divorce or money or what somebody else is doing, and that becomes the focus. Or another thing I see frequently is a lot of competition between parents, either in terms of feeling like they're winning certain arguments or who's winning, who's losing, or they become competitive and wanting to be the preferred parent with the child, and sometimes that leads also to disparagements of the other parents and certain levels of alienation. Of course, that varies. There's a whole spectrum of that. So I see those as some of the biggest challenges.

Speaker 3:

When I drill down into a concrete issue that I see frequently, what comes up over and over what I feel like I spend 80% of my time on is extracurricular activities. Are we signing them up? How are we getting there? Do I want to commit to having my child in this extracurricular activity on my parenting time, and what I try to fight for and advocate for is that these children deserve to have their childhood and they didn't ask for this divorce and they need to live as they can in this world and be able to have the opportunities that all children have staying for afterschool, sports or whatever that may be and so my goal is to get the parents to work those things out so that the child isn't affected.

Speaker 2:

And I would assume that even just talking about it in advance and anticipating those problems it's probably difficult for couples to do actually when they're focused on the divorce and not focused on what's going to happen after.

Speaker 3:

Exactly yes, and for me I do prefer to get families right at the time that they're considering divorce, because that's when I can really get in there and teach them some best practices before their patterns are set, and help them think about what are they going to do in the future to be able to work together. What systems can they set up? But even if I get people and I'd say probably a good part of my client base are post-judgment and maybe they didn't have a well-written plan or somebody's not following the plan, then I try to help them find systems to make it work.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so that brings us to what is a parenting plan. If somebody comes to you, or let's say they're listening in another state and they're intrigued by the idea of a parenting plan, can you talk about what that is and how that works?

Speaker 3:

Sure. So in Michigan and I'm assuming, in most states really I always think of the divorce coming down to two pieces. It's not as complicated as people think. Emotionally it's very complicated, but from the professional end it's pretty simple. It's just sometimes the emotion ends up making it more complicated than it needs to be. But it comes down to how are we dividing our assets and debts. There's the financial settlement and then the other piece is how are we going to share our children and make sure that we have meaningful relationships with them as they're growing up through their childhood?

Speaker 3:

So I look at the parenting plan and I always tell lawyers no offense to what you're doing, but I look at the parenting plan as the crown jewel of the entire settlement agreement, judgment of divorce, because that is the thing that's going to impact their entire structure of their life and the structure of their children's life until they're 18 years old. I know in other states it might go to a 21 or something like that, but here in Michigan it's 18. So basically what I do with a parenting plan and you have to have something written for the court, some sort of plan of how we're going to share the kids. You can write it as general or as detailed as you want, and I've certainly seen all sides of it and there's families maybe who have mediated and are extremely amicable and they've decided to leave it more open-ended and say, like, we're going to share the children 50-50, and we're going to figure out how we're going to do that over time. Maybe we're going to change over time and we're going to do it this schedule until they're older and then we're going to switch over to this schedule and they might have something that's a little more free-flowing. But I generally encourage people, even when they're very amicable.

Speaker 3:

If I'm writing a parenting plan, I do like it to be very detailed because I know over time that life is going to change for both parties and there might be new partners who come in and blended families and all kinds of other challenges, and I've seen situations that were amicable and very sadly might turn into more of a high-conflict case and I want them to have a parenting plan that's very solid in case they need it. So what I explained to them is we're going to write down everything. We're going to write what the schedule is going to look like in general. We're going to write a holiday and school break plan that overrides the regular parenting plan when it's in place, and we're going to be very specific about times Like Thanksgiving. We're going to do 9 am until 8 pm, or we're going to do Wednesday at the end of school until Monday at the start of school, and we're going to lay it out very specifically and then you don't have to use it at all. If you're getting along, you can do whatever you want and be very flexible. I'm not going to show up at your door. Nobody from the court is going to show up at your door and knock and say, no, the kid's not supposed to be here tonight. So it's not a problem, you can do whatever you want. But in case things turn sour, you have that in place and you can always follow that agreement.

Speaker 3:

It is a legal document because it's part of your judgment of divorce. So I also encourage people not to put things in there that they really don't necessarily want to be held to. So when I say I write a detailed plan, I include here's your general schedule, here's our co-parenting intentions, how we're going to treat each other, how we're going to respect each other we're not going to disparage each other in front of the children and things like that and we're going to work together for the best interests of the child. There's a lot of information about we have joint legal custody, we have access to all their records, medical education so there's some standard language. But then I have your holiday and break schedule broken down by each holiday, each school break, maybe alternating years, whatever it may be. Some people, for their regular parenting schedule, will do a graduated or transitional schedule where maybe they start out if the kids are younger maybe they're not going to be 50-50, but then when they turn a certain age they will switch it to that.

Speaker 3:

So there's all kinds of creative ways to address some of the concerns and issues people have. Now I also add in a lot of language about some other things, based on what I have learned, can go wrong for people. So I write in a lot of information about how we're going to handle signing up for extracurricular activities. I talk about things like how we're going to handle purchase of laptops, cars, how we're going to deal with car insurance. As I know, like for me, we got divorced when my kids were four, seven and nine and at that time we weren't necessarily thinking about 16-year-olds and we were able to work it out, but we had our challenges and I would say that most people do so. If you're writing out the expectations and I'll get them thinking about their children down the road it's a little bit easier for them to have something that they've already given thought to.

Speaker 2:

Right, I agree 100%. I actually I always encourage clients that they make it that they put together a budget of what their kids' expenses are. People don't usually think about what their kids' expenses are and then I encourage them to include things that they don't currently have. And I think there's a misconception that child support covers your children's expenses and in Michigan that is not the case. So if you want things like extra, I always tell clients, if you want things like extracurriculars and a car and a cell phone and all of those things, not to fall 100% on you you probably want to have a conversation about how that's going to work down the line.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, because I've seen some sad cases, jackie, where people will come in and they had a very poorly written parenting plan and maybe in the negotiation and mediation they just did have to give up on putting certain things in because somebody was being challenging with them.

Speaker 3:

I've seen plans where there's nothing in there for extracurricular activities, nothing for camp, nothing for cell phones, and now I've got a parent whose lower income, say, completely dependent on the child support and now thinks they have to pay all of this stuff out of the child support and the child support doesn't cover it. And when I go to the other parent they say well, that person gets child support. And then I go through the whole thing. I mean, I just did this also in some collaborative cases where I always do some education about it and I have to explain listen, this is, you do have this amount of child support and it's going to be really hard, but you also the two of you, are responsible outside of that to pay for extracurricular activities, school activities.

Speaker 3:

You have a field trip. Field trip may not be a big deal when they're in third grade, maybe it's $20. But guess what, when they're taking the eighth grade field trip to Washington DC? Now you're talking about $2,000. And I thought the kids were expensive when they were younger with the daycare costs, but then I had older kids and was hmm, Just doesn't stop.

Speaker 2:

I have a 19-year-old and a 17-year-old and, yes, they get more expensive. Now it's just been in a different way.

Speaker 3:

Right, and some people, Jackie, I don't know if you do some people do put in agreements about college and saving for college. It's a little more rare because you're really not responsible for the kids after 18, but in Michigan it's so true. But and that's why I think it's New Jersey yeah, New Jersey, it goes to 21. Makes more sense to me because what I see is these big fights start at about the college and the children are like ping-pong balls, going back and forth saying, well, what about this? We'll go ask your dad, We'll go ask your mom, and that's really bad. So if people are willing to, it's a really nice thing if they can plan for college and contribute a certain amount per month into a 529.

Speaker 2:

I have a case right now where that there's a child that is really into horses. The parents, because they're mediating and they are amicable and they're putting together a very detailed parenting plan. They have addressed how all of the horse, which the horse costs a lot of money to maintain. Oh, yes.

Speaker 2:

But what was really good about that conversation is that, even though child support is not going to cover those kinds of things in this particular case because spousal support is more open-ended and negotiable and gray we don't have a formula we can take those things into consideration in a support formula, so knowledge up front is always

Speaker 2:

better anticipating the problems that could come down the line. It's people a lot of time. What happens if somebody comes to you and they are it's just one parent and they say the other parent is refusing? Can you work with just one parent?

Speaker 3:

Yes, I actually I always send out when people ask me about, and I sort of change the name from co-parenting counseling to co-parenting facilitation. So sometimes I go back and forth, but now I'm trying to move it towards facilitation because I feel like that's more what it is Like. I'm trying to be an advisor and a facilitator, but when I send out an email and somebody's asking for information, I always have a sentence in there that says if you have a co-parent that's not willing to participate, I am absolutely happy to meet with you individually to do some co-parenting work and help you with your co-parenting. But I do request also that you have your regular therapist working with you on an ongoing basis. So I do have quite a few people where, on an as needed basis, they will contact me. We will work together.

Speaker 3:

I will advise them on how to write an email. They'll get an email from their ex and they'll say how do I respond to this without, you know, making it worse and creating a situation where I'm going to poke them and they're going to get even more upset and how do I communicate better and also just kind of guiding them to resources in the community that they could use to help them think through some strategies of working with this person and I might just give them options of things they can suggest. And it's just limited though, because I will say, ideally it's better if I'm working with two parents because I need them to work together. But if one parent is so far gone that they're refusing to me and do some kind of work like this, at the very least if I can help one parent do a better job of how they're working with the other parent, it's helpful for the children.

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely Better than nothing.

Speaker 3:

Exactly exactly.

Speaker 2:

Something has occurred to me. When you were talking before, I guess I didn't realize that. It's of course I realized but I hadn't really thought it through that it's part of the judgment of divorce. So what if there are changes that people want to work out later? Do they have to amend their judgment?

Speaker 3:

Yes, so that is one thing I really try to communicate with people is, once you're locked into a parenting agreement, as long as the two of you agree on making a change, that's not an issue. Either you can flexibly just live your life how you want. I mean, I feel like by the time our kids were older, I'm not even sure what our parenting agreement said anymore. I mean, we kept very structure on the regular schedule always, because the consistency and structure is very helpful for kids, even when they're teenagers. But when the holiday schedule like if it didn't line up with certain things and it didn't make sense, we would just say, all right, let's just do it this way. You can do that or you can agree that we need a change. But I don't necessarily trust that the other person's going to follow through with that always and we're going to make that change this year and be flexible, but then they're not going to be flexible with me next year. So instead I suggest to them well, you can have your lawyer write up a consent order. It's a very quick thing to do. You both sign it. They submit it to court. There may even be a way.

Speaker 3:

I've heard some of my clients have contacted the court and they'll sign a consent order between the two of them that they write, they get it notarized, they send it into the court so that amends their judgment. However, if they are not agreeing, it is very hard to get a change, especially on the regular parenting schedule. So I do say to people and I mean the regular everyday parenting schedule, not the holiday schedule I say to people you know, I'd rather you have something where maybe there's you're agreeing upon, like a graduated transitional schedule. Let's say they're not agreeing on 50-50, but one person is really wanting 50-50 and one person's not. And then you know they say to the other parent, well, maybe when they're older, and I'm like, okay, but we have to write that in there then because otherwise if you decide two years down the road, no, I don't really want that to happen, and it's not in the judgment. It will be nearly impossible for the other person to get that changed.

Speaker 2:

Wow, that makes it so much more important. Yes, I don't know what… See that up front.

Speaker 3:

Right. I don't know what the…. I'm not being a lawyer, this is just my observation. I think what you have to do is you go to court and or to the front of the court and you have to prove that there's a significant change in circumstance which doesn't mean, oh, I got remarried or oh, I'm making less money. It has to be very significant and meet a certain threshold. And when it meets that threshold, when the front of the court decides it meets that threshold, then it goes to an evidentiary hearing and you have to have evidence about that change in circumstance. And it's a very big process and very few people make it to the threshold. So that's why I'm saying if they're not in agreement, they're not going to change it.

Speaker 3:

So I sometimes people want to put in like a very detailed dating clause about dating somebody and you know how many months can you introduce.

Speaker 3:

I think that's a good thing, but I'm… in that case they say keep it very general, because you don't want to be locked into certain things. Or in Michigan, for example, the standard is you can move 100 miles away from each other as the crow flies by the way, not by Google Maps. I learned that my family, but really what it is is that some families will say, well, I want to put in there that we're not going to live more than two miles from each other. That's okay, you can do that, but then you're locked into it. And what I point out to them is when you meet Mr Right or Mrs Right whoever it is that you're going to end up with and they live 20 minutes away and they have, you know, their own brood of kids and their own judgment and divorce with their own parenting schedule, that you're locking yourself into something that's not flexible. So I just try to get them to be a little open and flexible. So, as much as I'm detailed, I'm also careful about the things that shouldn't be detailed.

Speaker 2:

If that makes sense Wow, yes, so your experience again has a huge benefit for people. I am the more that it sounds like almost like spousal support where in order the modification of it is, so it's so difficult. I've been involved in cases over the years where there's been a significant change in circumstances financially and we try to go back in and modify support and what I always find is that my idea of significant might be the judge's idea of completely insignificant change.

Speaker 3:

Exactly.

Speaker 2:

So it's very subjective. So this is such an important piece and I don't think enough people actually put the thought.

Speaker 3:

Right and I understand why the court says it, because if they were not strict about these rules, everybody would be coming in all the time wanting to change everything. And the truth is the court's correct in the fact that people are signing something they are we hope they have good counsel or whatever it may be and they're agreeing to something and then for them to just go and randomly undo it is very unfair to the other person, so that is why they're so careful. So I have a lot of admiration and respect for how they do that. Otherwise it would be a free for all and it would be a very messy situation for everybody.

Speaker 2:

That makes sense right. You know, I would almost hope that for people that have thought about a parenting plan and put that in place and have started using it, that maybe that muscle gets developed and so maybe they don't need it as much down the line.

Speaker 3:

Exactly. I mean, I would say probably 85% of your families are going to get along, Obviously on a spectrum, maybe not as well or really amicable, but most people get along and are flexible with each other. The one thing I really want people to be flexible about is if their family has an event of some sort and it doesn't fall on their parenting weekend. I really encourage people to do everything you can if there's a funeral, a wedding, a grandma's 80th birthday party. I had a family once where grandma had an 80th birthday party. They took a family portrait. The kid couldn't be there because the other parent wouldn't give up the time and that kid sees that portrait every time she's at grandma's without her in it.

Speaker 2:

That's heartbreaking.

Speaker 3:

I know.

Speaker 3:

So I do try, I do try.

Speaker 3:

And the other thing is that kids, for a long time they think of their parents as superheroes and it's very confusing to them in where they're at in the level of brain development because they're more concrete thinkers when they're younger.

Speaker 3:

It's hard for them to see that one of their parents could be a villain if the other parent is saying they are, and then they're confused because they love that other parent so much and they're confused why that original parent would call the other a villain.

Speaker 3:

And then they're looking at that parent like oh gosh, I can't trust you because you're speaking poorly about the other parent that I love. And then they're looking at the other parent thinking I can't trust you because you might be a villain. It's all very confusing for them and it actually creates very deeply embedded trauma that is so hardwired in their brain that it's very hard to undo as an adult and nobody wants their kid to live that way. But it's hard for people to really be conscious and understand those things because rightfully so they're emotional and caught up in things and sometimes I've seen people who really truly are obstacles and really difficult to even the easiest things like going to a scheduling and going to a doctor's appointment or, you know, creating like a list of priorities for extracurricular activities, and so it's very hard for the kids when those things are happening.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank goodness there are experts like you. There were not experts like you years ago, not even that far back, I would say, there were.

Speaker 3:

Right. I actually, when I opened my business I had no idea I sent out I don't know 400 letters to people that I knew and then I sent all these letters to the friend of the court and just introducing them and telling them who I was, and immediately I was packed. I didn't realize how much of a need it was. And when I'm on these mental health professional groups on Facebook or whatever, and people are asking, like I'm opening a private practice, what should I do? What would be a good field and I always try to encourage this because we need more people.

Speaker 3:

But a lot of people are very nervous about legal issues. They're nervous talking to lawyers, they're nervous they're going to get called in for testimony and there are some challenging pieces you really I've had to learn myself and you really do have to learn over time. So unfortunately, a lot of people are not attracted to this work and it's so important it really is. So those of us who are in it, we all know each other and we all work together and mentor each other. We're our own peer support groups, so I feel very lucky to have that.

Speaker 2:

And I hope that your voice as a group gets bigger over time and that you can reach more people. I am so grateful for your time today. This was fantastic and I know that people that are listening are going to get so much out of this. Thank you.

Speaker 3:

Well, I thank you for inviting me because you, you know, got me on here to talk about my favorite subject. So, and as you see, I can talk away on it, because I'm so passionate about it and there's so many layers to it and I really I just even if you can affect a child's life in the tiniest, tiniest way, you know you've made some sort of difference for their future, and that is a great feeling. It's very rewarding.

Speaker 2:

Your work must be so rewarding.

Speaker 3:

Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes, sometimes, some days are tougher than others, but yes, sometimes it really is. Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Well, I hope that you'll come on again, because I have a lot more questions that I thought of that I like Anytime.

Speaker 3:

Anytime, you can contact me anytime. So thank you, jackie. You're so welcome for joining us.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to the Wealthy After Divorce podcast. You can find more information on Melissa Freidenberg and Jackie Ressler on our website, wwwpearlplancom, as well as on our podcast website, wwwwealthyafterdivorcecom.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Jacki Roessler, CDFA®

Host
Head Shot

Melissa Fradenburg, CDFA®️

Host